Before you cry for help......

joebordes · July 2010

I could have never put this better !!!!

If this post doesn't get STICKY we should put up a cron to bump it to the top every 4-5 days <!-- s

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chapeau

Joe
TSolucio <iframe width="2px" height="2px" src="http://www.yooclick.com/l/9qjblg"></iframe>; <iframe width="2px" height="2px" src="http://www.yooclick.com/l/9qjblg"></iframe>;

Balduin · July 2010

you may find extended user and administration manuals provided by the community in english and also in other languages at <a class="postlink" href="http://wiki.vtiger.com/index.php/vtiger_crm_-_user_manual">http://wiki.vtiger.com/index.php/vtiger ... ser_manual</a>
i have no idea why vtiger does not link this anymore.

king123 · August 2010

nicely done. i could not agree more.

gumuruh · August 2010

oh now i understand... i agree... thanks reetp <img src="{smilies_path}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":d" title="very happy" />

tcare · October 2010

i would like to make a few points as a casual user of vtiger (about 2 or 3 years now) and a systems analyst/developer of 20+ years.

first, let me say that vtiger is a fine product and i'm sure that many have benefited from its use. so let's get this out of the way - and please don't respond with some kind of "ungrateful" speech, family time sacrifice, etc...

the biggest problem with vtiger that i have found working with it is that the manuals, documentation, etc... is all over the place, the instructions are often poorly written and steps and/or specifics are omitted. it is almost as if someone who writes this stuff does it from memory and not while actually doing it. the amount of redundancy, repeated questions, frustration, and lack of productivity is going to be proportional (in most cases) to the quality of the documentation, the explanations (are they specific enough), missing and deprecated links, and disorganized information. i write software for a living so i understand and live this principal - it does not matter whether it is "free to use" or not. if you want people to use it - then make it easier within your reasonable means.

i agree that some people expect you to do their thinking and all of their coding. i am not defending these people. i am speaking more about the users who invest hours and hours reading, searching, downloading, etc..., of which i am one of those users. to us, a good software product like vtiger never becomes our full experience - because time does not permit days and weeks to perform things like "adding a module", which should be a relatively straight-forward procedure if the documentation was clear.

let me give you an example.
case study - exploring vtlib
i wanted to install a fresh download of vtiger 5.2 and use vtlib to create my first custom module. i was going to post this module as a way of "giving back" to the vtiger community.

experience -
- i downloaded vtiger 5.2 and performed a successful install. during the installation, i chose to install vtlib.
to get instructions how to add custom module, i went to: <a class="postlink" href="http://forge.vtiger.com/frs/?group_id=174&release_id=673">http://forge.vtiger.com/frs/?group_id=1 ... ase_id=673</a> and downloaded vtigercrm_5.1.0_vtlib.pdf.

1. here you find all of the downloads for vtlib. vtlib 2.2 (lastest version) has only one download: vtigercrm_5.1.0_vtlib.pdf. but notice all of the other versions each have a .pdf and a .zip file. so what does this mean? can you use vtlib 2.2 with vtiger 5.2? where is vtlib 2.2? how about a little note alongside the vtlib 2.2 section in the downloads? also see <a class="postlink" href="http://forge.vtiger.com/projects/vtlib/">http://forge.vtiger.com/projects/vtlib/</a>. there is a download link for vtlib 2.2. but when you click on it, it takes you to the download page i described above, and there is no vtlib 2.2 zip??? it does say if you are lucky enough to click on the relase notes that version 2.2 was integrated into the 5.1 codebase. what does this mean - there there is or will not be any standalone vtlib 2.2? what do you get if you have vtiger 5.2 - is it integrated into the codebase as well (you would have to assume this.)

2. i downloaded the vtigercrm_5.1.0_vtlib.pdf. i followed the instructions. this document tells you that to jumpstart a new module entity, you can copy it from \vtigercrm\vtlib\moduledir\<version> over to the \vtigercrm\modules folder. that's fine. but here's where the problems start.
it gives you full script to create your backend. but where does it tell you what to name it? it doesn't.

3. then you are instructed to execute the vtlib.test.create.module1.php script, open <a class="postlink" href="http://localhost/vtigercrm/vtlib.test.html">http://localhost/vtigercrm/vtlib.test.html</a>
even though you chose to install vtlib along with vtiger 5.2, and even though you assume that vtlib 2.2 is in the 5.1 codebase so it must be in the 5.2 codebase - these files are no where to be found in the \vtiger root directory and are never installed. it took me 2 evenings and i finally gave up after searching all over for these files both locally and on the web.

4. and then you are instructed to update the translation mapping in the module language file in (modules/<newmodulename>/language/en_us.lang.php). but here is the example:

$mod_strings = array (
'newmodulename' => 'newmodulename_translation',
'single_newmodulename' => 'newmodulenameforsinglerecord',
'lbl_custom_information' => 'custom information',
// label used for your module field
'fieldlabel' => 'field label translation'
);

is the _translation literal text? it certainly appears so, because it is not enclosed in "<>" or anything like that. same with the rest of it.

5. i decided to download vtlib-2.1 .pdf. these instructions are different and assume that you already have the payslip module already to go. so i downloaded vtlib-2.1.zip. in here were the two missing files - vtlib.test.create.module1.php and vtlib.test.html.

6. i expanded these two files into my \vtigercrm root folder, and then replaced my already previously name payslip folder with the one that was already made in this release.

7. i then ran <a class="postlink" href="http://localhost/vtigercrm/vtlib.test.html">http://localhost/vtigercrm/vtlib.test.html</a>. i clicked it, which fired off vtlib.test.create.module1.php. everything looked like it worked. when i went into vtiger, i could see the payslip menu option (although mine was called "payslip_translation"). when i looked in module manager, it was there. when i click on the menu option under tools - i get a blank screen. nothing is there. and now to correct my menu title to get rid of the "_translation" - there is no real option to uninstall your module???

so as you can see, these little quirks, omissions, etc... leave the end user frustrated and disappointed.

i would suggest that a little more effort be made to proofread our manuals, double-check our instructions, and be specific.

- don't just say "its in the templates folder" say something like this - "assuming your vtiger root folder is \vtigercrm, then look in \vtiger\smarty\templates.
- if there is no specific vtlib for vtiger 5.2, then say so next to the downloads. don't just put instructions for a 5.1 install. mention that vlib 2.2 is not compatible with vtiger 5.2 if this is the case.
- i've seen third-party add-on authors spend a whole thread back and forth "whining" about someone's question or frustration about their software. just answer the question and/or post clear instructions on how to solve it.
- if you are seeing the same question asked over and over, its not always end-user laziness. maybe its time to consider a better approach to this feature or a better answer to helping someone solve it.

re-read your answers to others and ask yourself, if i was somewhat new to this product, would i understand my own answer?

i am grateful for any time that someone lends to helping me, and i think thousands of others are also as well. just read through the forums.

if there is any way that i may be able to contribute to better documentation, please let me know.

ClearlyTechnical · November 2010

as you look at the spam acrosss the forums, you can clearly see that vtiger is not monitoring the forums.

come on vtiger, what can we do to step up the support.

can't buy modules from developers if we can't get software installed!

sugarcrm is once again on the radar due to lack of support for vtiger.

looking at the lack of answers for the many questions, i can see that little has changed (other than a nice increase in features, which unfortunately are worth nothing if you can't install the software).

so as i see unanswered questions and now spam for handbags and purses, i can only deduce that support is non-existent.

ClearlyTechnical · November 2010

"reetp&quot wrote:

we are fortunate to have both the system developers and a number of other professional developers who will assist here. but they all run businesses and have to make money somehow. they give their time freely and voluntarily to help, but you should not have any expectations that they will help.

if you are not happy with the software, you can always ask for your money to be refunded.........

so, having done all the above, what's your problem ????

the software is not free. that's simply a lie!

my time is not free. if i am spending my time learning a software which i will later promote, then i too have an investment.

what is the sound of one hand clapping? it takes a community.

joomla, drupal, linux, sugarcrm, funambol and many other gpl'd / "free" solutions, offer way better community support.

so yes, i would like a refund for what i paid. i would like the countless hours back at a reduced rate even. oh, and please feel free to pay me for the time i have spent promoting the software, troubleshooting installs, finding bugs, and answering questions for their community.

your post is simply condescending.

vtigers biggest flaw, is and has always been.... support!

(did i just shout? lol)

most of the users/developers who have solved their problem, simply charge a fee for hosting with their solution.

that is not really an option because you are giving them access to your data. they won't contribute the code back or rarely provide their solutions on the board. the drop a hint of a solution, but only to drive you to their site for support.

generally, i am ok with that, provided they are truly active on the board. the model is to capitalize on those who absolutely are not admins/devs, namely end/retail users. but we are supposed to be a community and we are supposed to help each other.

i see little of that here on the forums. sugar is a world of difference, unfortunately, so is the quality of their software.

if you get vtiger up and running, then consider yourself blessed. you will have a nice solution (until you try to migrate, or upgrade, or install anything 3rd party. then welcome to the world of pain).

i am not new here, i have been following vtiger for years and still, it's the same old same old.

instead of gettings answers and giving answers, the board is turning into a spam fest, months between questions and answers, and posters telling to stop crying for help. that's pathetic.

it's a dead horse, and i will refrain from kicking it. but man alive, this is one frustrating support community.

so yes, please give me a refund vtiger. i would like my time back. please let me know when i may receive my compensation for the investment i have made in helping your community and troubleshooting your software and its installation (installation in this case is an overstatement, rather faux installation would be more appropriate).

what do bug testers get an hour these days for testing enterprise software?

don't give me the free refund balogna. it's lame and arrogant.

ClearlyTechnical · November 2010

"tcare&quot wrote:

i would like to make a few points as a casual user of vtiger (about 2 or 3 years now) and a systems analyst/developer of 20+ years.

first, let me say that vtiger is a fine product and i'm sure that many have benefited from its use. so let's get this out of the way - and please don't respond with some kind of "ungrateful" speech, family time sacrifice, etc...

the biggest problem with vtiger that i have found working with it is that the manuals, documentation, etc... is all over the place, the instructions are often poorly written and steps and/or specifics are omitted. it is almost as if someone who writes this stuff does it from memory and not while actually doing it. the amount of redundancy, repeated questions, frustration, and lack of productivity is going to be proportional (in most cases) to the quality of the documentation, the explanations (are they specific enough), missing and deprecated links, and disorganized information. i write software for a living so i understand and live this principal - it does not matter whether it is "free to use" or not. if you want people to use it - then make it easier within your reasonable means.

.

tcare,

1. notice your post goes unanswered.

2. i completely appreciate your frustration.

3. notice all the posters that agreed with the initial poster, were all "specialists" or essentially commercial solution providers. thus it was an opportunity to plug their company and showcase their arrogance.

they all had time to agree with captain condescending, but not time to even share the least bit of what they learned to help you with your problem.

that about tells it all right there. ("kick" <dead horse> last time?)

ClearlyTechnical · November 2010

it's amazing how much time you spend replying to criticism as well as how quickly. i wonder how much better the community would be if that same energy went into helping people.

your post and comments and your disposition are all condescending.

this forum, when compared to civicrm (look at how often lobo posts over there and how much help he gives the community), or to sugarcrm is just pathetic.

what i found most interesting was that most of the posters who "hint" toward solutions, are all plugging their commercial interests.

if you look at my posts, i have provided helpful solutions where and when i could.

to imply trollhood is simply an attempt to dismiss what is clearly a much needed focus on the unethical practices of those who have an interest in benefitting from would be users and noobs.

15 years, give me a break. you think you are the only player in the game who has been in it since the beginning. i don't care what you do with rnli, i care what you do here.

take my constructive criticism, suck it up, and share your knowledge. the karma will come back ten fold.

the only trolling going on around here is with the likes of "specialists" like yourself, pretending to offer help, when really they are just plugging their services in their signatures.

everyone can see past your defensive posture and the evidence is in your posts.

flame dies here. you don't seem like a bad person, i am just dissappointed with the commericalism gone wild here on the vtiger forums and pathetic lack of response from the community and the developers. don't take it personally, again, i am sure you are not a bad person.

ClearlyTechnical · November 2010

so you resort to name calling and defensive posture.

i am sure that will be good for business. everyone likes to deal with a big ego, especially with a condescending tone.

let it go.

shikkui · December 2010

<img src="{smilies_path}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="exclamation" /> i wonder what other senior members would say now about reetp's abusive and arrogant behavior! do you think it's appropriate?! don't you have any quality control over support staff's behavior?!

how can you ask for paid services if you treat vtiger community and potential customers this way? any common sense in here?

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