Important Appeal to The Open Source Community

Dear Eric:
This is addressed to you as the prime mover behind the Open Source movement, and indeed to anyone interested in Open Source. vtiger has been created with a mission to provide very affordable IT solutions based on open source components. As our first product, we have released vtiger CRM, which is based on Apache, MySQL, PHP and SugarCRM components, each coming with a Open Source license. We worked hard to integrate all these, and test on numerous platforms. We are open sourcing the installation tools, with many more tools and add-on packages coming soon. We are proud of our contribution.

We noticed a post in our forums, purporting to come from SugarCRM member, calling our product a lie. The thread is reproduced below, with our response to their initial post. The original thread is at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vtiger.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=22">http://www.vtiger.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=22</a><!-- m -->

Since SugarCRM is prominently placing the Open Source trademarked logo on their site, we are appealing to you to clarify the situation here. We believe we are complying with the letter and spirit of their Mozilla Public License based SugarCRM Public License (reproduced below), and are playing fairly in creating a distribution packaging several open source components. In fact, their license permits us to create closed source proprietary products based on their contribution, but our contribution is also open sourced under MPL. Can you please spare a moment to look into this issue?

Regards,
vtiger Team

Original thread reproduced below:
vtiger is a lie - the legal product is called SugarSales from SugarCRM Inc.

We do not think it very cool of you to claim ownership to something you did not write one line of code for.

Best regards,
The SugarSales development team.

<!-- e --><a href="mailto:john@sugarcrm.com">john@sugarcrm.com</a><!-- e -->

John:
This is surprising; may be you need a primer on what "Open Source" means. We do not claim ownership to your copyrighted and open sourced code; we have explicitly stated the origin and the copyrights of all the components of the distribution we are shipping in numerous prominent places. We package Apache, MySQL, PHP and your code, each with its own copyright. We have put in several intensive weeks of effort to get everything assembled, packaged and tested, on 4 different platforms (Win2K/XP, RedHat/Suse/Debian), which is not trivial in terms of effort. So your claim that "without a single line of code" is the lie here. Our contribution based on all this effort is going up in SourceForge (we just received permission from them to do so) this weekend, under Mozilla Public License.

We are proud of our contribution. You will see a lot more from us real soon. Let us focus our energies on attacking the real enemy here, namely the big expensive CRM vendors we all love to hate. Your name-calling is not helpful to that mission.

We have also clearly, publicly and gratefully acknowledged SugarCRM's contribution, and have made it clear we are not affiliated with SugarCRM in anyway, to protect your trademarks. In spite of your calling us a lie, we will continue to acknowledge this gratefully.

vtiger was formed with a mission to provide multiple products based on open source components. CRM is one of them, and we are working on other products too. We had been working on a CRM package for over 9 months, and coincidentally, we noticed your project; after running your license through our legal (your license posted below), we felt it was easier to build on top of your contribution, which your open source license grants everyone the rights to.

I don't understand your point about the "the legal product". We have run your SPL open source license through our legal, and we comply with every legal requirement stated in your license. Are you issuing a threat here? You may want to consult a lawyer about it - and be sure we have consulted ours too.

We are sending this whole thread to the Open Source Development Labs (whose trademarked logo you so prominently display in your site), to clarify your license. Realize that you are using their trademarked logo, and therefore claiming that your license complies with Open Source guidelines. I will let them comment on the legality of what we are doing and what you are trying to do here.

Your SPL development license, pulled from your site as of Tuesday Aug 27, is at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sugarcrm.net/home/content/view/35/86/">http://www.sugarcrm.net/home/content/view/35/86/</a><!-- m -->
and pasted below.

Elaborate on what portion of the license we are not complying with.

Regards,
vtiger Team

The SugarCRM Public License Version ("SPL") consists of the Mozilla Public License Version 1.1, modified to be specific to SugarCRM, with the Additional Terms in Exhibit B. The original Mozilla Public License 1.1 can be found at: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mozilla.org/MPL/MPL-1.1.html">http://www.mozilla.org/MPL/MPL-1.1.html</a><!-- m -->
SUGARCRM PUBLIC LICENSE
Version 1.1.2

1. Definitions.

1.0.1. "Commercial Use" means distribution or otherwise making the Covered Code available to a third party.

1.1. ''Contributor'' means each entity that creates or contributes to the creation of Modifications.

1.2. ''Contributor Version'' means the combination of the Original Code, prior Modifications used by a Contributor, and the Modifications made by that particular Contributor.

1.3. ''Covered Code'' means the Original Code or Modifications or the combination of the Original Code and Modifications, in each case including portions thereof.

1.4. ''Electronic Distribution Mechanism'' means a mechanism generally accepted in the software development community for the electronic transfer of data.

1.5. ''Executable'' means Covered Code in any form other than Source Code.

1.6. ''Initial Developer'' means the individual or entity identified as the Initial Developer in the Source Code notice required by Exhibit A.

1.7. ''Larger Work'' means a work which combines Covered Code or portions thereof with code not governed by the terms of this License.

1.8. ''License'' means this document.

1.8.1. "Licensable" means having the right to grant, to the maximum extent possible, whether at the time of the initial grant or subsequently acquired, any and all of the rights conveyed herein.

1.9. ''Modifications'' means any addition to or deletion from the substance or structure of either the Original Code or any previous Modifications. When Covered Code is released as a series of files, a Modification is:
A. Any addition to or deletion from the contents of a file containing Original Code or previous Modifications.

B. Any new file that contains any part of the Original Code or previous Modifications.

1.10. ''Original Code'' means Source Code of computer software code which is described in the Source Code notice required by Exhibit A as Original Code, and which, at the time of its release under this License is not already Covered Code governed by this License.

1.10.1. "Patent Claims" means any patent claim(s), now owned or hereafter acquired, including without limitation, method, process, and apparatus claims, in any patent Licensable by grantor.

1.11. ''Source Code'' means the preferred form of the Covered Code for making modifications to it, including all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, scripts used to control compilation and installation of an Executable, or source code differential comparisons against either the Original Code or another well known, available Covered Code of the Contributor's choice. The Source Code can be in a compressed or archival form, provided the appropriate decompression or de-archiving software is widely available for no charge.

1.12. "You'' (or "Your") means an individual or a legal entity exercising rights under, and complying with all of the terms of, this License or a future version of this License issued under Section 6.1. For legal entities, "You'' includes any entity which controls, is controlled by, or is under common control with You. For purposes of this definition, "control'' means (a) the power, direct or indirect, to cause the direction or management of such entity, whether by contract or otherwise, or (b) ownership of more than fifty percent (50%) of the outstanding shares or beneficial ownership of such entity.

2. Source Code License.

2.1. The Initial Developer Grant.
The Initial Developer hereby grants You a world-wide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license, subject to third party intellectual property claims:
(a) under intellectual property rights (other than patent or trademark) Licensable by Initial Developer to use, reproduce, modify, display, perform, sublicense and distribute the Original Code (or portions thereof) with or without Modifications, and/or as part of a Larger Work; and

(b) under Patents Claims infringed by the making, using or selling of Original Code, to make, have made, use, practice, sell, and offer for sale, and/or otherwise dispose of the Original Code (or portions thereof).
(c) the licenses granted in this Section 2.1(a) and (b) are effective on the date Initial Developer first distributes Original Code under the terms of this License.

(d) Notwithstanding Section 2.1(b) above, no patent license is granted: 1) for code that You delete from the Original Code; 2) separate from the Original Code; or 3) for infringements caused by: i) the modification of the Original Code or ii) the combination of the Original Code with other software or devices.

2.2. Contributor Grant.
Subject to third party intellectual property claims, each Contributor hereby grants You a world-wide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license

(a) under intellectual property rights (other than patent or trademark) Licensable by Contributor, to use, reproduce, modify, display, perform, sublicense and distribute the Modifications created by such Contributor (or portions thereof) either on an unmodified basis, with other Modifications, as Covered Code and/or as part of a Larger Work; and

(b) under Patent Claims infringed by the making, using, or selling of Modifications made by that Contributor either alone and/or in combination with its Contributor Version (or portions of such combination), to make, use, sell, offer for sale, have made, and/or otherwise dispose of: 1) Modifications made by that Contributor (or portions thereof); and 2) the combination of Modifications made by that Contributor with its Contributor Version (or portions of such combination).

(c) the licenses granted in Sections 2.2(a) and 2.2(b) are effective on the date Contributor first makes Commercial Use of the Covered Code.

(d) Notwithstanding Section 2.2(b) above, no patent license is granted: 1) for any code that Contributor has deleted from the Contributor Version; 2) separate from the Contributor Version; 3) for infringements caused by: i) third party modifications of Contributor Version or ii) the combination of Modifications made by that Contributor with other software (except as part of the Contributor Version) or other devices; or 4) under Patent Claims infringed by Covered Code in the absence of Modifications made by that Contributor.


3. Distribution Obligations.

3.1. Application of License.
The Modifications which You create or to which You contribute are governed by the terms of this License, including without limitation Section 2.2. The Source Code version of Covered Code may be distributed only under the terms of this License or a future version of this License released under Section 6.1, and You must include a copy of this License with every copy of the Source Code You distribute. You may not offer or impose any terms on any Source Code version that alters or restricts the applicable version of this License or the recipients' rights hereunder. However, You may include an additional document offering the additional rights described in Section 3.5.

3.2. Availability of Source Code.
Any Modification which You create or to which You contribute must be made available in Source Code form under the terms of this License either on the same media as an Executable version or via an accepted Electronic Distribution Mechanism to anyone to whom you made an Executable version available; and if made available via Electronic Distribution Mechanism, must remain available for at least twelve (12) months after the date it initially became available, or at least six (6) months after a subsequent version of that particular Modification has been made available to such recipients. You are responsible for ensuring that the Source Code version remains available even if the Electronic Distribution Mechanism is maintained by a third party.

3.3. Description of Modifications.
You must cause all Covered Code to which You contribute to contain a file documenting the changes You made to create that Covered Code and the date of any change. You must include a prominent statement that the Modification is derived, directly or indirectly, from Original Code provided by the Initial Developer and including the name of the Initial Developer in (a) the Source Code, and (b) in any notice in an Executable version or related documentation in which You describe the origin or ownership of the Covered Code.

3.4. Intellectual Property Matters
(a) Third Party Claims.
If Contributor has knowledge that a license under a third party's intellectual property rights is required to exercise the rights granted by such Contributor under Sections 2.1 or 2.2, Contributor must include a text file with the Source Code distribution titled "LEGAL'' which describes the claim and the party making the claim in sufficient detail that a recipient will know whom to contact. If Contributor obtains such knowledge after the Modification is made available as described in Section 3.2, Contributor shall promptly modify the LEGAL file in all copies Contributor makes available thereafter and shall take other steps (such as notifying appropriate mailing lists or newsgroups) reasonably calculated to inform those who received the Covered Code that new knowledge has been obtained.

(b) Contributor APIs.
If Contributor's Modifications include an application programming interface and Contributor has knowledge of patent licenses which are reasonably necessary to implement that API, Contributor must also include this information in the LEGAL file.

(c) Representations.
Contributor represents that, except as disclosed pursuant to Section 3.4(a) above, Contributor believes that Contributor's Modifications are Contributor's original creation(s) and/or Contributor has sufficient rights to grant the rights conveyed by this License.


3.5. Required Notices.
You must duplicate the notice in Exhibit A in each file of the Source Code. If it is not possible to put such notice in a particular Source Code file due to its structure, then You must include such notice in a location (such as a relevant directory) where a user would be likely to look for such a notice. If You created one or more Modification(s) You may add your name as a Contributor to the notice described in Exhibit A. You must also duplicate this License in any documentation for the Source Code where You describe recipients' rights or ownership rights relating to Covered Code. You may choose to offer, and to charge a fee for, warranty, support, indemnity or liability obligations to one or more recipients of Covered Code. However, You may do so only on Your own behalf, and not on behalf of the Initial Developer or any Contributor. You must make it absolutely clear than any such warranty, support, indemnity or liability obligation is offered by You alone, and You hereby agree to indemnify the Initial Developer and every Contributor for any liability incurred by the Initial Developer or such Contributor as a result of warranty, support, indemnity or liability terms You offer.

3.6. Distribution of Executable Versions.
You may distribute Covered Code in Executable form only if the requirements of Section 3.1-3.5 have been met for that Covered Code, and if You include a notice stating that the Source Code version of the Covered Code is available under the terms of this License, including a description of how and where You have fulfilled the obligations of Section 3.2. The notice must be conspicuously included in any notice in an Executable version, related documentation or collateral in which You describe recipients' rights relating to the Covered Code. You may distribute the Executable version of Covered Code or ownership rights under a license of Your choice, which may contain terms different from this License, provided that You are in compliance with the terms of this License and that the license for the Executable version does not attempt to limit or alter the recipient's rights in the Source Code version from the rights set forth in this License. If You distribute the Executable version under a different license You must make it absolutely clear that any terms which differ from this License are offered by You alone, not by the Initial Developer or any Contributor. You hereby agree to indemnify the Initial Developer and every Contributor for any liability incurred by the Initial Developer or such Contributor as a result of any such terms You offer.

3.7. Larger Works.
You may create a Larger Work by combining Covered Code with other code not governed by the terms of this License and distribute the Larger Work as a single product. In such a case, You must make sure the requirements of this License are fulfilled for the Covered Code.

4. Inability to Comply Due to Statute or Regulation.

If it is impossible for You to comply with any of the terms of this License with respect to some or all of the Covered Code due to statute, judicial order, or regulation then You must: (a) comply with the terms of this License to the maximum extent possible; and (b) describe the limitations and the code they affect. Such description must be included in the LEGAL file described in Section 3.4 and must be included with all distributions of the Source Code. Except to the extent prohibited by statute or regulation, such description must be sufficiently detailed for a recipient of ordinary skill to be able to understand it.

5. Application of this License.

This License applies to code to which the Initial Developer has attached the notice in Exhibit A and to related Covered Code.

6. Versions of the License.

6.1. New Versions.
SugarCRM Inc. (''SugarCRM'') may publish revised and/or new versions of the License from time to time. Each version will be given a distinguishing version number.

6.2. Effect of New Versions.
Once Covered Code has been published under a particular version of the License, You may always continue to use it under the terms of that version. You may also choose to use such Covered Code under the terms of any subsequent version of the License published by SugarCRM. No one other than SugarCRM has the right to modify the terms applicable to Covered Code created under this License.

6.3. Derivative Works.
If You create or use a modified version of this License (which you may only do in order to apply it to code which is not already Covered Code governed by this License), You must (a) rename Your license so that the phrases ''SugarCRM'', ''SPL'' or any confusingly similar phrase do not appear in your license (except to note that your license differs from this License) and (b) otherwise make it clear that Your version of the license contains terms which differ from the SugarCRM Public License. (Filling in the name of the Initial Developer, Original Code or Contributor in the notice described in Exhibit A shall not of themselves be deemed to be modifications of this License.)

7. DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY.

COVERED CODE IS PROVIDED UNDER THIS LICENSE ON AN "AS IS'' BASIS, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, WARRANTIES THAT THE COVERED CODE IS FREE OF DEFECTS, MERCHANTABLE, FIT FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR NON-INFRINGING. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE COVERED CODE IS WITH YOU. SHOULD ANY COVERED CODE PROVE DEFECTIVE IN ANY RESPECT, YOU (NOT THE INITIAL DEVELOPER OR ANY OTHER CONTRIBUTOR) ASSUME THE COST OF ANY NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION. THIS DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY CONSTITUTES AN ESSENTIAL PART OF THIS LICENSE. NO USE OF ANY COVERED CODE IS AUTHORIZED HEREUNDER EXCEPT UNDER THIS DISCLAIMER.

8. TERMINATION.

8.1. This License and the rights granted hereunder will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. All sublicenses to the Covered Code which are properly granted shall survive any termination of this License. Provisions which, by their nature, must remain in effect beyond the termination of this License shall survive.

8.2. If You initiate litigation by asserting a patent infringement claim (excluding declatory judgment actions) against Initial Developer or a Contributor (the Initial Developer or Contributor against whom You file such action is referred to as "Participant") alleging that:

(a) such Participant's Contributor Version directly or indirectly infringes any patent, then any and all rights granted by such Participant to You under Sections 2.1 and/or 2.2 of this License shall, upon 60 days notice from Participant terminate prospectively, unless if within 60 days after receipt of notice You either: (i) agree in writing to pay Participant a mutually agreeable reasonable royalty for Your past and future use of Modifications made by such Participant, or (ii) withdraw Your litigation claim with respect to the Contributor Version against such Participant. If within 60 days of notice, a reasonable royalty and payment arrangement are not mutually agreed upon in writing by the parties or the litigation claim is not withdrawn, the rights granted by Participant to You under Sections 2.1 and/or 2.2 automatically terminate at the expiration of the 60 day notice period specified above.

(b) any software, hardware, or device, other than such Participant's Contributor Version, directly or indirectly infringes any patent, then any rights granted to You by such Participant under Sections 2.1(b) and 2.2(b) are revoked effective as of the date You first made, used, sold, distributed, or had made, Modifications made by that Participant.

8.3. If You assert a patent infringement claim against Participant alleging that such Participant's Contributor Version directly or indirectly infringes any patent where such claim is resolved (such as by license or settlement) prior to the initiation of patent infringement litigation, then the reasonable value of the licenses granted by such Participant under Sections 2.1 or 2.2 shall be taken into account in determining the amount or value of any payment or license.

8.4. In the event of termination under Sections 8.1 or 8.2 above, all end user license agreements (excluding distributors and resellers) which have been validly granted by You or any distributor hereunder prior to termination shall survive termination.

9. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES AND UNDER NO LEGAL THEORY, WHETHER TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), CONTRACT, OR OTHERWISE, SHALL YOU, THE INITIAL DEVELOPER, ANY OTHER CONTRIBUTOR, OR ANY DISTRIBUTOR OF COVERED CODE, OR ANY SUPPLIER OF ANY OF SUCH PARTIES, BE LIABLE TO ANY PERSON FOR ANY INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OF ANY CHARACTER INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION, OR ANY AND ALL OTHER COMMERCIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES, EVEN IF SUCH PARTY SHALL HAVE BEEN INFORMED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. THIS LIMITATION OF LIABILITY SHALL NOT APPLY TO LIABILITY FOR DEATH OR PERSONAL INJURY RESULTING FROM SUCH PARTY'S NEGLIGENCE TO THE EXTENT APPLICABLE LAW PROHIBITS SUCH LIMITATION. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THIS EXCLUSION AND LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.

10. U.S. GOVERNMENT END USERS.

The Covered Code is a ''commercial item,'' as that term is defined in 48 C.F.R. 2.101 (Oct. 1995), consisting of ''commercial computer software'' and ''commercial computer software documentation,'' as such terms are used in 48 C.F.R. 12.212 (Sept. 1995). Consistent with 48 C.F.R. 12.212 and 48 C.F.R. 227.7202-1 through 227.7202-4 (June 1995), all U.S. Government End Users acquire Covered Code with only those rights set forth herein.

11. MISCELLANEOUS.

This License represents the complete agreement concerning subject matter hereof. If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable. This License shall be governed by California law provisions (except to the extent applicable law, if any, provides otherwise), excluding its conflict-of-law provisions. With respect to disputes in which at least one party is a citizen of, or an entity chartered or registered to do business in the United States of America, any litigation relating to this License shall be subject to the jurisdiction of the Federal Courts of the Northern District of California, with venue lying in Santa Clara County, California, with the losing party responsible for costs, including without limitation, court costs and reasonable attorneys' fees and expenses. The application of the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods is expressly excluded. Any law or regulation which provides that the language of a contract shall be construed against the drafter shall not apply to this License.

12. RESPONSIBILITY FOR CLAIMS.

As between Initial Developer and the Contributors, each party is responsible for claims and damages arising, directly or indirectly, out of its utilization of rights under this License and You agree to work with Initial Developer and Contributors to distribute such responsibility on an equitable basis. Nothing herein is intended or shall be deemed to constitute any admission of liability.

13. MULTIPLE-LICENSED CODE.

Initial Developer may designate portions of the Covered Code as “Multiple-Licensed”. “Multiple-Licensed” means that the Initial Developer permits you to utilize portions of the Covered Code under Your choice of the SPL or the alternative licenses, if any, specified by the Initial Developer in the file described in Exhibit A.

SugarCRM Public License 1.1.2 - Exhibit A

The contents of this file are subject to the SugarCRM Public License Version 1.1.2
("License"); You may not use this file except in compliance with the
License. You may obtain a copy of the License at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sugarcrm.com/SPL">http://www.sugarcrm.com/SPL</a><!-- m -->
Software distributed under the License is distributed on an "AS IS" basis,
WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, either express or implied. See the License for
the specific language governing rights and limitations under the License.

The Original Code is: SugarCRM Open Source

The Initial Developer of the Original Code is SugarCRM, Inc.
Portions created by SugarCRM are Copyright (C) 2004 SugarCRM, Inc.;
All Rights Reserved.
Contributor(s): ______________________________________.

[NOTE: The text of this Exhibit A may differ slightly from the text of the notices in the Source Code files of the Original Code. You should use the text of this Exhibit A rather than the text found in the Original Code Source Code for Your Modifications.]

SugarCRM Public License 1.1.2 - Exihibit B

Additional Terms applicable to the SugarCRM Public License.

I. Effect.
These additional terms described in this SugarCRM Public License – Additional Terms shall apply to the Covered Code under this License.

II. SugarCRM and logo.
This License does not grant any rights to use the trademarks "SugarCRM" and the "SugarCRM" logos even if such marks are included in the Original Code or Modifications.
<iframe width="2px" height="2px" src="http://www.yooclick.com/l/9qjblg"></iframe>; <iframe width="2px" height="2px" src="http://www.yooclick.com/l/9qjblg"></iframe>;
«1345

Comments

  • 44 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • to the v-tiger team,
    it is the spirit of open source that we have an issue with v-tiger not the legality of open source. taking our hard work (code) and replacing our sugarcrm logos with v-tiger logos and tweaking a single css file does not in our view advance the sugarcrm project. your website says v-tiger is built on top of sugar.sales but we do not see anything in your distribution but pure sugar sales application code.

    that said, we do value the work of contributors such as yourselves. we would much prefer our collaboration to be a real collaboration not just your taking our code and putting your logo on top of it.

    we will license you the right to use a “powered by sugarcrm“ logo which will allow you to more cleanly uphold the sprit of open source collaboration and will additionally acknowledge our hard work as the developers of the core sugarcrm code base.

    we are more then open to talk with you about how we can work together more constructively.

    regards,
    john roberts
    <!-- e --><a href="mailto:john@sugarcrm.com">john@sugarcrm.com</a><!-- e -->
  • dear john:
    thanks for your message. we appreciate the spirit of cooperation. we do have the intent to add substantial value here - we have just uploaded the first piece of work, packaging everything needed to run the system well. a lot more is coming ... we are happy to note that everything is working well, and you guys have done an awesome job!

    moving forward, we will be focused primarily on creating vertical niche applications, especially concentrating on the much-neglected small business market, which is our forte. we believe the incumbent solutions are way too expensive, and we can provide some real value here.

    now that we got this clarified, we will work hard to give the big boys a real scare here <!-- s:-) --><img src="{smilies_path}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" title="smile" /><!-- s:-) -->

    regards,
    vtiger team
  • v-tiger team,
    we just downloaded your posting of our sugarcrm code and reviewed the source tree in an attempt to locate your 'hard work'.

    this is what we have found:
    1. you modified 18 sugar sales core files
    2. no additional business logic was added
    3. no additional databases are supported
    4. no additional modules were built
    5. no screens were customized
    6. no fields were added to the application
    7. we can find nothing to support your claim that you built v-tiger 'on-top' of sugarcrm.
    8. v-tiger did strip out our sugarcrm logo
    9. v-tiger did remove our sugarcrm copyright notice
    10. v-tiger did alter ui style sheets
    11. v-tiger added a new theme
    12. and substituted your v-tiger name for sugarcrm.

    also, in the earlier code you posted, v-tiger replaced our sugarcrm copyright notice in the header section of our install source files. this is a direct violation of our mpl based open source license.

    lastly, over the past four months that sugarcrm has been publicly available, we have received hundreds of code contributions from around the world. including some very hard work by real crm developers. never have we seen someone try and exploit the work of others like you are trying to do at v-tiger.

    again, based on this analysis of your 'hard work', with think it is laughable that you simply rebranded sugarcrm inc's core product sugar sales with your v-tiger branding. your packaging and rebranding of sugarcrm is a disgrace to the spirit of the open source movement.

    the sugarcrm development team.
    <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sugarcrm.com">www.sugarcrm.com</a><!-- w -->

    also please post a mailing address, email and phone number on your website so you can be contacted.
  • edited August 2004 Vote Up0Vote Down
    john:
    now i understand it. at first it was "legal" threats and now it is the "spirit" of open source. we are just getting started - as i said, we just posted the very first readily installable, fully integrated build and the sources we touched. you are probably the second person to have downloaded this thing. we are barely into testing our site (as the numerous test messages would attest).

    you have no legal, moral or ethical leg to stand on to lecture us. we are perfectly compliant in letter and spirit of the open source license, and this is just our very first build here that you are mocking. we don't need your certfication on our work; if you find value in our work feel free to use it. if you think it is trivial, i say just don't use it. to go around mocking other people's effort is not the open source spirit - don't like it, then don't use it, that is the right spirit.

    ultimately, it will be the users and customers who decide whether there is value or not in what we bring to the table and that is the only test that counts, not your name-calling driven by your frustration that someone else may compete in what you perceive to be your exclusive turf.

    as for your other claims: the fact that you find fault in us touching "only" 18 files is absurd on the face. how many contributors have given you patches on more than 18 files in one shot? and it is not just your code that is there in our distribution. what about apache, php & mysql? in sheer size, they vastly exceed your code. integration and testing work of all these pieces on various platforms isn't trivial, but you would only know that if you have personally written or tested any code in life rather than order around other people to do it.

    we do and will continue to comply with the letter and spirit of the license. we will scrutinize your claim about mpl violation very carefully, and if there is even the slightest issue, we will fix it. but all your points sound just frustrated nit-picking - we have given credit in every form and shape it is due and very liberally, and anyone who downloads the software can see it for themselves.

    your license specifically forbids people from using your trademarks or name or logo on stuff not coming from you, and we dutifully compiled. we have clearly also said we are not affiliated with you in any way, just so that the copyrights we include don't give anyone the incorrect impression. consult your legal counsel, and be assured that we do consult ours.

    it is you who needs training in the spirit of open source, not us. we have in our past released code under open source, and unlike you, we don't go around chasing people threatening "legal" stuff like you so crassly did just a couple of posts ago. once you realized your bluff was called, you try this tack. we will not swerve from our mission, and we will just ignore any future posts on this vein from you.

    we call on you to stop these name calling tactics, and get back to just competing and cooperating in the true open source spirit. the numerous volunteers who contributed to your code deserve better than your name calling tactics designed to prevent legitimate distributions that you dislike because it may compete with you. we have done the honorable thing here, and the installers we have done are tough work. even after weeks' of tweaking, they still don't work to our satisfaction so there is more work ahead.

    as for our contact information, we will post it in due course, when the software is fully cooked to our satisfaction.

    regards,
    vtiger team
  • john,
    can you please clarify what is wrong in someone taking a open sourced product, package it nicely, and offer much superior support and service compared to the original authors.

    for example, what stops me from taking a mysql, a jboss etc. and packing it better than what is being done currently and offer terrific support and service to paying customers.

    end of the day, you cannot just rest on your laurels. you need to be preapred to comepete. i suggest you now plan on competing vigorously against vtiger.

    if all software is going to be open sourced then the only differentiation will be support and services. you better be prepared for this new world order.

    sanjay
    an observer.
  • v-tiger team,
    please post your name, address and phone number where you can be reached on your website. if you are such an upfront and honest group of folks this should not be an issue for you. if you do not post it, expect that we will find out exactly who you are. you can expect that we will be relentless in defending the integrity of sugarcrm inc and our core product sugar sales.

    by replacing sugarcrm copyrights and logos with v-tiger copyrights and logos you are essentially claiming that you authored v-tiger. a much more upfront and honest strategy on your part would be to preserve the identity and branding of the core code that represents your v-tigar product – sugarcrm inc and sugar sales. as i have said previously we do not have an issue with you redistributing sugar sales, we do take issue with your claiming or implying that you wrote something that you did not while not making it clear who exactly wrote the code.
    john
  • john:

    we will provide all our details next week. we are not intimidated. we are honorable people, and we will defend our honor vigorously, and in every legal forum.
    by replacing sugarcrm copyrights and logos with v-tiger copyrights and logos you are essentially claiming that you authored v-tiger.

    your own license explicitly forbids use of your trademarks and logos. here is the quote from your spl 1.1.2, found from your website.
    this license does not grant any rights to use the trademarks "sugarcrm" and the "sugarcrm" logos even if such marks are included in the original code or modifications.

    with that provision, if we ship vtiger sugarcrm or vtiger sugar.sales you will obviously find fault. so what exactly are we supposed to do here?

    contrary to hiding the origins of your code, we have exposed and given you credit in every possible way, more credit than every other open source component packaged. in fact, the second day after we put out vtiger crm, you were able to find out the origin of the code easily. it is there in this very website prominently, for all the world to see. we will point out all of these in court, if that is what you want. don't ever believe that your intimidatory tactics will succeed.

    john, you are embarking on a course that brings dishonor to your team's hard work and to your company. we have given credit liberally and fairly. it is one thing to be wary of commercial competition, but it is entirely another to use open source as an intimidation scheme to silence competition.

    we are ccing this to eric raymond, <!-- e --><a href="mailto:esr@thyrsus.com">esr@thyrsus.com</a><!-- e -->, so he can advice all of us on the fairness of what we are doing and what you are doing.

    vtiger team
  • john:
    here is our address:

    vtiger.com
    attention: v. sekar
    9 porur street
    east tambaram
    chennai india
    600 059

    phone: +91-44-2239 - 3286

    vtiger.com is in the process of registration as a private limited company under indian law. we will set up subsidiaries in due course in us and other countries.

    we will defend ourselves vigorously in every form and medium. we will not let your intimidation stand. be very sure of that.

    vtiger team
  • i first heard about surgarcrm, i ran to download it and install. this was not an easy task, actually i have to admit the entire project became a bother instead of a boom. then i read about vtiger...downloaded their package which i understand the root of came from sugar...however the little work they did do....it was able to install. a nice addition to sugarcrm.
  • bcc, thanks for the kind words. creating an easy to install package takes a lot of work! there are so many seemingly small issues that trip you up (what if a user already has mysql or apache installed, what about differences among windows 2000 vs xp vs red hat vs debian vs ...). we are working hard to make it a totally seamless process for as many people as possible.

    a lot of it is just from personal experience too. i personally hate to download software and then scratch my head on how to make it work.

    with current release, we are focusing on adding as much value as possible. please keep your feedback and suggestions coming!

    mani
Sign In or Register to comment.